German Chancellor warns Cameron is close to point of no return for the EU

I would like us to stay in the EU but worry that the Germans and French the two most powerful countries in the EU, want to create some sort of super state. The EU needs to change and the UK should play a bigger part in it. 100 years ago war was being fought in France and Belgium. In WW2 more lives would be lost. On both occasions our great Nation stood up against the Kaiser and against  Hitler, we made a stand for freedom. And we helped to liberate those Europeans that were subjected to such horrors of occupation that thankfully we on this island never experienced. We owe it to all those lives lost to make a go of developing a successful EU. If we fail then Europe may go back to those dark days of mistrust, envy and dealing with differences with bullets and bombs rather than talking. I see our role in the UK as peace keepers after all did we not help to achieve peace in Europe at the end of two horrific wars. A successful prosperous Europen Union that thrives on freedom and democracy. Is this not a long lasting tribute to all those lives that were lost in two World Wars. 

Wow, a powerful sentiment, especially at the moment with the first world war centenaries etc

I'd love to be swayed by your argument, but the economic crisis of the present and it's multitude of issues is also a good counter argument.

I'll confess and say I am genuinely stuck on the fence 

Just seen this on the Beeb website. How about this for a counter argument?

Immigrants from the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004 contributed more to the UK than they took out in benefits, according to a new study.

• They added £4.96bn more in taxes in the years to 2011 than they took out in public services.
• Immigrants who arrived since 2000 were 43% less likely than British people to receive state benefits or tax credits, and 7% less likely to live in social housing.
• They were better educated, with 62% of those from the first 15 EU countries and 25% from the A10 countries having a degree, compared with 24% in the UK.

Full Story BBC News

Drives a cart and horses through the immigration debate if the figures are correct!

Maybe we are looking at this wrong and need to export a section of British society to live somewhere else where benefits aren't so available. Then let them come back when they've gained some work ethics 

We have a nice Asian family living near us, I spoke to the mother, she attends collage three times a week to learn to speak English, because she knows how important language is. She also speaks French and spainish. 

The problem is though there are many countries in the EU that are not prosperous and live off the back of the countries that are. As for democracy it can only be that if we have voted for it, up to this point in time, no one in the UK has. What we have at the moment has been forced upon us. The only thing the UK has ever voted on was whether or not we join a common market. I'm pretty sure if the voters of 40 odd years ago knew where this country was heading 40 years down the road, I think the result may have been different.

I guess it's the old adage that you can do anything with stats, and 2 sides can use the same numbers to support opposite arguments.

But it's nice to have a positive view point regarding migration and the EU for once, even if it is only fleeting 

I'm still on the fence, but after a beer I tend to lean towards being anti euro, must be the negative power of alcohol