Spelling out why grammar matters

Nope it has nothing to do with rhubarb or any other kind of fruit and veg and neither does knowing how to use apostrophes make you a highly educated person, however much you'd like us all to believe that it does....

Personally I think the only people who will be disadvantaged by poor grammar are the unfortunate ones who end up getting ridiculed by pompous prats and take it to heart. Must admit I haven't come across any spelling / grammar police on any forum for years now..... I thought they'd all died out, no doubt as usual we'll all sit back and wait for the inevitable to happen and it will.....  

Ah, okay, I've got it, there's no vegetable connection. Very droll. You're as witty as you are charming.

I'm curious about one thing though. You seem angry enough at a lot of people to hurl insults at them. I was wondering which group it is that you see as the worst kind. Is it the ones who have a decent education, i.e., the ones with their heads "stuck up their rear ends"; the "grammar police" who have the temerity to speak and write correctly or those "pompous pratts" who man university admission panels, interview boards, courtrooms etc. where individuals who sound ignorant often lose out?

Steve:

ahh ok, sorry thought you'd got the hump  apologies 

I knew you'd misinterpreted me!

Been one of those days today, everyone seems grumpy. Our man Clive hasn't stopped moaning all day, which is justified as he's been shouting at worldpay, dealing with multiple complaints, and trying to deal with moving house 

I should be grumpy because my personal email is on the blink, since last night (knew something was wrong when I wasn't receiving twitter notifications as usual).  I'm still waiting for it to be resolved.

.....as it seems I've blocked everyone in.

That's just plain bad manners and lack of consideration for others  

Clinton:

"I teach my children that no matter how they speak when with friends there is no excuse for not retaining the ability to use formal language when required, and no substitute for knowing when to use it."

FTFY

I think someone just misunderstood the use of the word 'rhubarb'?

Originally Posted by Barney

“Must admit I haven't come across any spelling / grammar police on any forum for years now.....  ”

Neither had I, until lately, but never hurts to be 'helped'!

Blimey, now I've no idea who is on the offensive or who is on the defensive??

I think this debate has summarised the mood of modern Britain, and view points will be very much reflected in your age and background. 

Like many others, after being academically uninspired, through a mixture of laziness, immaturity and ability, I found my path with the Military. Although able and advised by my recruiters to go for an engineering role, I stuck to my guns to be a military driver, to the disappointment of many! But I loved it, saw the world, and met the biggest cross section of people, backgrounds and cultures imaginable. This in my mind is the best education I could have received, which has served me well in the business world, allowing me to talk at all levels, adapting styles depending on scenario and audience.

But the military of the late 1980's was in decline, trying to re-invent itself in a post Cold War world, whilst clinging onto the mentality and views of greatness and long a vanquished Empire.

So as one of those individuals that no doubt sounded ignorant, my exposure to University Educated men (rarely women) was of primarily (this gradually changed) a public school background. The common factor was arrogance and superiority, something at the time that was encouraged and developed. As a driver, I was firmly at the bottom of the food chain. If tasked to pick up an officer, once military pleasantries were conducted, it was a rare occurrence to be spoken to like a human, and normally barked at as something on the bottom of a shoe, or spoke to condescendingly as if the subject felt compelled to to talk to a lower educated lifeform, keeping topics fairly low key.

This will naturally either give you a chip on your shoulder, shape a dark sense of humour, or maybe both

The military has to have a rank structure and a no questions asked order policy, that's a given.

But it is an institution steeped in history, old school thinking and very slow and aggressive to change. The modern military thankfully bares no resemblance to the one I left in 1999, and civilian life turned out to be a breath of fresh air, with institutions such as IBM keen to exploit lateral thinking and rewarding success pushing me in directions I couldn't have imagined a couple of years earlier.

But I suspect other great institutions have also been slow to change, such as the judiciary, police, civil service, government etc. People working here in the 70's and 80's I suspect will have had similar experiences to myself. This will temper a lot of mindsets which can be passed on.

So fast forward today, and when I hear a plum accent, my guard is immediately up. Insecurities and stereotypes forged from a recent past. In the same way when I recoil after hearing the modern generation speaking in this "chav" language, forged from modern media stereotypes.

But I am huge believer in modern Britain. I genuinely believe we now live in an age where anything is possible. Education or background are no longer a hindrance, in the same way they are no longer a guarantee. We have many faults, problems and challenges ahead, but I can't imagine a more exciting time to live.

I tell my kids they can be and do anything they put their minds to. I hope they go to University, I hope they are exposed to structured thinking and their views and intellect are challenged. But I will be just as happy if they go on an apprenticeship or decide a different path. 

I also hope they don't get tattooed, pregnant before 30 and continue to speak properly!

If speaking properly and using the written word correctly helps make you stand out from a crowd or opens doors to opportunities, then that is nothing but a good thing, so I fully subscribe to one of Clinton's earlier points.

But I hope the days of being judged by your education, culture, creed or background are consigned to history.

TL;DR (means Too Long, Didn't Read and I couldn't be bothered, so give me the key point)

Few people would disagree incorrect grammar in an official business document from a CV to business plan would make you look like a muppet.

But I think few people would be overly worried or concerned by a typo or incorrect grammar on a forum, at least IMHO 

I need a lie down after that, my typing finger hurts...

Thanks. It's heartening you understand where the emphasis lies and have taken on board that a thread about grammar is a good place to stay on the right side of grammar law.

Steve, I hear what you're saying, but despite being in the UK for over a quarter of a century I'll never get used to reverse snobbery and the desperation people exhibit in aligning themselves with ignorance and stupidity. There seems to be some invisible badge of honour in taking a stand against anything that is intellectually or culturally superior. The seeds for this seem to be sown in, ironically, schools!

Those who wallow in this crab bucket often delude themselves that simple (even illiterate) people are nicer, kinder and even wiser than the erudite, sophisticated or educated. That simply by virtue of being educated or knowledgeable one becomes part of an elite that merits being despised. That any ambition to better oneself intellectually is a betrayal of one's roots. That if you improve yourself today you may be clipping 'them' vowels tomorrow.

Hilarious.

Especially when one comes, as I do, from a culture where educated people - particularly teachers, the givers of knowledge -  are treated with more respect. It was always so in ancient cultures ...from the Mayas to Mohenjo-daro to Ming. Respect for scholars and seekers of knowledge is still near universal in cultures from Germany to Japan. But not in modern Reality TV Britain.

It's amusing rather than infuriating.

But I've lingered long and need to get back to work. I'll let this thread sail without me for now and wish her fair wind and calm seas.

Apologies for the delay, was whizzing around Lincolnshire yesterday.... No need to be curious, it was not me who joined a forum and started arguing within the first one or two postings about peoples grammar / spelling. I'll grant you many people including you will get it wrong every now and then, even Dr Johnson who's heating we installed got it wrong occasionally. But in today's fast modern world it makes no difference..

As to your point about having a decent education, well education goes far wider than what you can learn in a classroom and as to your argument about the educated sitting on boards, panels and in courtrooms...... It's mostly these people that end up in the dock themselves, once their DNA profiles have caught up with them and after enough people have come forward to give evidence..... It's not the plumbers, bakers or the gardeners.... But always the lawyers, teachers, clergy and medical profession.... You could just say all those who excelled in formal education....

So no, I'm not as you say angry at a lot of people, far from it.... I just like everyone to be on a level playing field and treat each other as an equal rather than trying to belittle someone on a forum because in your mind they miss spelt something... it doesn't matter, it might for the minority but that's about it.......

I think this is where the UK has a pretty unique perspective versus the rest of the world. What outwardly may be seen as deliberate ignorance or taking a stand against the culturally superior, is just a by product of the old barriers breaking down.

For such a tiny country, we have an inordinate amount of historical baggage that has stamped such a mark across the globe. Arguably sometimes for the good, at least in our school books, but invariably for the worse at the expense of the local folk.

This Empire driven superiority mindset originated in a class system perfected and reinforced over centuries by Educational, Government and private institutions. It's pretty reasonable to expect a modern backlash against it, with a more enlightened view, and for it to take an age to dismantle.

Maybe the pendulum has swung too far the other way, or maybe we are still in a period of nationally re-calibrating ourselves as the old guard die off, the bowler hat images fade, and the 21st century shines through.

When Rebecca gets back, she has a lot to answer for...

As to your point about having a decent education, well education goes far wider than what you can learn in a classroom and as to your argument about the educated sitting on boards, panels and in courtrooms......

You know, I find that point quite funny really.  It's those types of people that CAN think of themselves as far superior to everyone else..... when in really, it quite often turns out that they are just full of sh*t!  (I don't know why, but MPs spring to mind for some reason!)

I'm not knocking (and would NEVER knock school education)... it IS important, after all.  But the REAL education is when you get out into the big wide world and start experiencing life etc, that's the REAL education!

I can't remember the last time I wrote a letter (tends to be all email's these days), but I was often told that my std of letter writing was excellent. It would sometimes take some time to achieve, but I could write professional letters.  I probably still could these days, just rarely have a need.

I've never been too concerned about my grammar on a forum though... but again, depends entirely on the circumstances.

I also prefer things on a level playing field, and definitely like to treat people as equal.  I certainly don't, and probably never will, look down on someone or treat them as if I'm far superior to them!